常玩电脑的人大脑结构异于常人？ 科学家新近提交了这样一份研究结果，但称其原因尚为未知。做任何事情当然都要适可而止，但是玩电脑究竟会不会改变人体大脑结构，这倒是一个新鲜话题。本期《无限播客》栏目就此话题为各位读者带来一场激烈讨论，由于辩论双方所持观点完全不同，所以说话语速非常快，蜂蜜们一定要全神贯注地听，另外由于是辩论原声，过程当中难免会有“抢话”时刻，所以在激烈辩论当时的话语只是按原声播放出来，某些地方说话者本身也是词不达意，但翻译也只能遵循原文，请大家见谅。
辩论双方介绍：
◆ 苏珊?格林菲尔德（Susan Greenfield）：1950年出生在英国伦敦，曾就读于牛津大学学习哲学和实验心理学，至法国巴黎深造后返回牛津大学格林学院任研究员，现为牛津大学药理学教授，英国皇家研究所首位女理事，并获前任英国首相布莱尔所封终身贵族，在英国时尚杂志评选的“全球最具影响力50名女性”排行榜上，她位列第14位，是英国科学界最富个性和争议的人物之一。她的研究着重了解意识的物理基础和大脑功能及紊乱，例如帕金森症和阿茨海默病，并成为该领域的科研翘楚。除了在神经学研究领域声名显赫外，还是“科普大使”、电视节目主持人、时尚和娱乐杂志的常客。
◇ 所持观点：认为数码科技会损伤大脑并使大脑结构异于常人
◆ 汤姆?奇弗斯（Tom Chivers）：《每日电讯报》（The Daily Telegraph）记者。◇ 所持观点：认为人们用网络与人沟通是一种良好的方式
Host: What impact are videos 1)like that, or games like that, having on our children’s brains?
Susan Greenfield: Well, that’s a very big question, and there’s lots of work going on about it. But rather than give an exhaustive review of the literature here, let’s just look at a so-called 2)meta-analysis. And this was of about 130 papers, w h i c h t h e r e f o r e
3)encompassed about
130,000 subjects using
a hundred or so tests,
and there the broad
conclusion was that
there’s an increase in
4)aggression, increase
in 5)recklessness, high
levels of 6)arousal,
decrease in 7)pro-social
behaviour. But, of
course this paper has,
itself, been 8)critiqued
as 9)biased, but that is
the nature of scientific evidence. There’s very rarely the killer paper, the 10)conclusive paper that everyone buys.
Host: Do you think it might be right? Your concerns.
Susan: I think…as a 11)neuroscientist…let’s start from the beginning. As a neuroscientist: it is a 12)given the brain adapts to the environment, the human brain is 13)exquisitely 14)evolved, more than any other species, to adapt to wherever it is placed. It follows that if the environment is[sic] therefore shifts to a 15)two-dimensional world with only hearing and vision being accessed, it is a given the brain will
主持人：视频或游戏之类的对我们孩子的大脑有什么样的影响呢？
苏珊?格林菲尔德：那是一个很重要的问题，关于此也有很多研究正在进行中。但是就让我们来看一个所谓的元分析，而不是在这里给出一个详尽的理论说明。此分析大概有130页，因此包含了十三万研究对象，用到了大约一百种实验，而主要的结论就是说出现了更多的侵犯行为，人们更易受到刺激，亲社会行为在减少。当然这篇论文本身也被指责不够客观，但科学论证的本质就是那样。有确切结论的论文是很罕见的，那样的话人人都接受（这样的论点）了。
主持人：你认为那是正确的吗？（我指的是）你的担心。
苏珊：我认为……作为一名神经系统科学家……让我们从起源开始说吧。作为一名神经系统科学家，我们已经知道大脑要适应于环境。为了适应所处的环境，人类大脑比其他任何物种，都经过了更高度的进化。所以可以断定如果环境因此变化为一个二维世界，只有听觉和视觉可用，那么大
change. Most people accept this. The big question: is it good or bad? What do we want to do about it? Let’s try and unpack all the different issues that come from that, but no one would dispute the 16)plasticity of the brain.
Host: What would you say to that?
Tom Chivers: Well, I think you’re absolutely right, no one would dispute the brain changes to its environment. This is the case, but, I mean, that’s always been the case, just because…our environment’s now involved lots of screens and lots of computer games and all that sort of stuff. That’s we…it’s accepted that will change our brains. But there’s no evidence (Audio skipped) world. There’s been a lot of evidence, a lot of studies into these things, and as far as I’m aware, there is no solid evidence either way.
Host: I mean, most people are obviously not scientists. I…I would suspect most parents…they would just think instinctively, “If my child has got a constant diet of this sort of thing, it must affect them in some way”.
Susan: Okay, so let…let’s just think of two separate things. One is the 17)anecdotal evidence, and frankly, I’ve yet to meet a parent who says, “Do you know it’s just
脑就会改变了。大部分人都接受这个观点。重要的问题是：这是好还是坏呢？我们想对此做些什么？让我们试着来解释一下由此而衍生出的所有不同论点，不过（可以确定的是）没有人会怀疑大脑的适应性。
主持人：你对此有什么说法？
汤姆?奇弗斯：好吧，我认为你说的完全正确，没人怀疑大脑会随着环境而发生相应的变化（这一事实）。确实是这样。不过，我指的是，总是如此仅仅是因为如今我们的环境陷在无数的屏幕和无数的电脑游戏以及诸如此类。那是我们……人们普遍认为这会改变我们的大脑。但是当今世界还没有证据。确实是有很多迹象，有很多深入这些事物的研究，但是据我所知，不管哪种方式都还没有提出可靠证据。
主持人：我的意思是，大多数人显然都不是科学家。我……我想大多数父母……他们大概只是本能地想：“如果我的孩子长期接触这类事物，一定会在某方面受到影响的。”苏珊：好的，那就让我们来想想两种具体的事物。一种是轶事证据，坦白说，我还没遇到过一位家长说“我家孩子花很多时间在电
great my kid spends so much time on the computer”. That’s the first thing. Second are the statistics that are coming out. For example, a recent study in the States showed that between a child’s 13th and 17th birthdays, over half of them―over half―were spending 30 plus hours in front of a screen outside of school, not walking along a beach, not feeling the sun on their face. Now that’s the first thing. So, no, that’s…it is then in the nature …
Host: Just briefly, ’cause I need to break.
Susan: … Yeah, very…yeah.
Host: Yeah, come in to that point.
Susan: Yeah.
Tom: That’s…that’s not true for a start, “30 hours in front of a screen”…
Susan: What’s not true?
Tom: “30 hours in front of a screen” is not time not spent sort of talking to a friend. I spend a lot of time on the computer and people do sort of speak to friends all the time. It’s what a lot of…
Susan: But you’re not… you’re talking to a screen, you’re not talking to a person.
Tom: Well…
Susan: You don’t give them a hug, you don’t look them in the eye.
脑上太棒了”的。那是第一种。第二是将要发布的数据。比如，美国最近有一项研究表明，一个孩子从13岁到17岁期间，（研究对象中）超过半数――半数以上――课外花了30个小时在电脑前，没有沿着海滩散过步，没有感受过太阳照在脸庞上的感觉。那么这是第一种情况。那么，那是在自然……
主持人：说简洁些，我得来打断一下了。苏珊：……没错，非常……是的。
主持人：正是，直截了当地说吧。
苏珊：好的。
汤姆：一开始的说法就不对，“在屏幕前30个小时” ……
苏珊：什么不对？
汤姆：“在屏幕前30个小时”并不意味着没有花时间和朋友聊天。我在电脑前花很长时间，人们一直都会不时和朋友们聊天的，也聊得挺久的……
苏珊：但是你不是……你是在对着屏幕说话，你没有亲自和人对话。
汤姆：好吧……
苏珊：你没有给他们拥抱，你没有看着他们的眼睛。
Tom: Do you… wouldn’t you agree talking on the mobile…on a phone you’re not talking to a …
Susan: Well I’m not saying that’s the ideal medium...
Tom: … you’re not talking to a phone, you’re talking to a person, you know what I mean…
Susan: I’m not saying that’s ideal, either! (laugh)
Tom: …I’m just, you know, well, I’m saying, but I mean, they… that’s another
one, another of the
interesting things is
that there is some
e v i d e n c e , a s I
understand it, that
they’re... the people
who have… have
active lives on social
media actually slightly
tend to have more
active real social lives
as well. It’s not this
18)closeted geek sitting
in a darkened room.
Host: Is that right?
Tom: 19)Apparently. I’ve…I’ve ...
Susan: Well, …
Tom: I quote by one, there’s another, if you have time…
Susan: Okay, so, as a…as a …
Host: That would surprise me.
Susan: It would surprise …
Host: It may be true, but it would surprise me.
Susan: Well, then also you look at other papers such as reported from the University of Michigan, a decline in empathy in 1,400 college students over the last 10 years. We can look at different papers, my whole point being, it is never the case in science that you have the conclusive paper that everyone says, “Great! We will believe this.”What you need to do is 20)iterate and 21)evaluate and think about and discuss and …
Host: …and check it out.
Susan: …be very specific in what you’re asking, so what I want to do this evening is to ask the government: please let’s have a 22)coordinated 23)initiative so for ordinary human beings…I…the majority of people are not scientists,
汤姆：你们会……你不会同意说用手机交流……用电话，你也不是在和……
苏珊：我也没说那是理想化的媒介啊……
汤姆：……你不是在和电话机讲话，你是在和人说话，你知道我的意思……
苏珊：我也没说那是理想化的（方式）！（笑）
汤姆：……我只是，你知道，呃，我是说，但是我是指，他们……那是另一种，如我所理解的，另一种有趣的事物就是有些证据说明他们是……事实上热衷于社交媒体生活的人同样也更愿意有现实中的社交生活。不是说（就要）像一个坐在暗室里的隐藏起来的怪人。
主持人：真的是那样吗？汤姆：显然是对的。我已经……
苏珊：好吧……汤姆：我举了一个例子，还有另一个，如果你有时间……
苏珊：好的，那么，作为一个……
主持人：那会让我感到惊讶。（译者注：主持人这样说是因为汤姆提出了“热衷于社交媒体生活的人同样也更愿意有现实中的社交生活”这一说。）苏珊：那会使人惊讶……
主持人：或许那是真的，不过也会让我觉得吃惊。
苏珊：那么你再看看其他报告吧，例如来自密歇根大学的报告说，在过去10年里，一千四百名大学生逐渐缺乏同理心。我们可以看看不同的论文，我整个论点就是，在科学中，情况从来都不是你有着人人都在说的结论性论文：“太好了！我们就相信这个。”你需要做的就是反复论证，再仔细评估，然后回想，接着再讨论还有……主持人：……还有检查。苏珊：……（还有）非常清楚你的问题，因此我想做的就是在今晚恳请政府部门：为了普通大众，请让我们拥有协同合作的主动精神。绝大多数人都不是
who are parents, who are concerned, who are teachers, who are employers; there’s a means for them to understand what is happening so they can then, in turn, question and challenge what is happening, and we can actually go
forward in some way.
Host: Brief word from
Dale.
Dale: I …
Host: We’ve got 20
seconds.
Dale: … I work with
24)ex-offenders and youth
at risk …
Host: Yes.
Dale:…and they spend
a lot of time playing
Call of Duty and they all
understand and accept
that it’s not good for
their brains, just as they
understand smoking all the
25)cannabis they do is not
good for them either…
Host: Really.
Dale: …The fact that they
do it doesn’t mean that it’s okay.
科学家，他们或是父母，或是关切此事的人，他们或是老师，或是做老板的人。对他们来说有了一种方式去了解正在发生的事情，那么他们就可以轮流问询当下正发生的事，这样我们也许就可以真正得到进步。
主持人：由戴尔来作个简短的总结。
戴尔：我……
主持人：我们还有20秒的时间……
戴尔：……我同释囚和高危青少年工作……
主持人：是的。
戴尔：……他们花很多时间来玩《使命召唤：尖峰时刻》，他们都知道也承认这对大脑不利，就像他们同样懂得抽大麻对他们不好一样。
主持人：确实。
戴尔：事实上他们那么做并不表示那就是对的。